They did not decide on their own to go into that store.  If you listen to the tapes, you will hear Garvin tell them to come inside the store with him.

Guidance?  There’s the big issue right there.  There was no guidance or leadership to keep these men from certain death.

Garvin signed the inspection report on the SSS.  Did he note anywhere on the inspection report that the store has a steel truss roof?  NO!
Should Garvin and the Chief know the dangers of steel truss roofs?  YES!  Did either of them make the call to pull their men out when St. Andrews pulled their men out?  NO!  Did Chief have any clue as to how many men or who was in that store?  NO!
Why?  BECAUSE HE HAS HIS OWN INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM AND HE DOES NOT CARE HOW THEY DO IT ANYWHERE ELSE! 

Lack of leadership and lack of training by the leadership led to the deaths of these 9 men.

For ANYONE to suggest that they did it to themselves is just plain ignorant.

God Bless the Charleston 9 and their families.  We will never forget............

Johnathan, your right, some individuals did not follow procedures that night. Those persons were mainly Chiefs Thomas and Garvin. Their ineptness and incompetence directly led to those nine deaths.
When you are a FF in a strucure in a heavy smoke enviornment, you are blind. You cannot see your hand, let alone anything else going on. You use your training, and other senses to find your way, extinguish the fire or make your exit. Your safety, at that point, is very dependent on others. Mostly the people on the outside. If conditions worsened the chief or safety officer is SUPPOSED to pull the interior crews out for their safety.
In this case they were let down by the men on the outside in charge of their safety. All they knew was they were supposed to fight fire. But, they were horribly “out gunned”. First Garvin, then Thomas were sending crews inside without securing proper water or even a plan for fighting this fire. They also had no idea who was in there or what they were doing. They became lost from their hose lines because the fire overran them and they panicked. I am sure all of us would have a that point. But, it should never have come to that if they had any kind of competent leadership outside concentrating on the fire instead of worrying about who is supplying whom, and which engine to relocate to what station.

These men may have made mistakes, but the real mistake was made by the egotistical moron standing outside!!!!

John Caulkins makes a couple of points that I would like to follow-up on. Do you think that the P&C;is really asking the tough questions? I think the toughest question should be...."Do you think that the nine firefighters wanted to die that night?”. These firefighters are a group of very experienced firefighters that went into not their first fire. Yeah, this was a tragedy, but they have done this before. If there was policy, they were trained on it. Now, I’m thinking that maybe policy was not followed by the firefighters that should have followed it.

Yeah, take a baby and show them a busy intersection; sure they’re not going to look both ways when they cross the street because they don’t know any different and yes, they will get killed.

These firefighters, who have fought many fires in the past, knew policy and what to do...."they" chose not to follow it. When Chief Rusty Thomas made it to the scene, they already chose their fate based on their decision not to follow procedure. They were already lost in the fire.

Now, not to sound like I don’t care, because I do. I just want to point out what everyone is overlooking because of what the media and the P&C;(who is asking all the tough questions) is doing.

Think about it........a bunch of experienced firefighters did not choose to die that night, but they did decide “on their own” what to do that night WITHOUT the Chief or any others guidance.

“there was no PUBLICLY known reason not to do what they had always done. “

Yes there was. OSHA standards are quite public as a matter of law in an OSHA state. His years of willful disregard to those standards and refusal to implement them showed he had NO regard for safety or the lives of is men. Read the violations. Even the poorest, most rural departments meet most of those standards. There is NO excuse.

Here’s a question no one seems to answer and the media has not addressed:

Why does the CFD send ONE engine in response to an automatic alarm at a hospital or school?  This is a HUGE public safety issue!  Hundreds of patients in hospitals that can’t move around on their own....This is a life and death situation for these folks and one that the media should start questioning!  What happens when it’s NOT a false alarm?!!??

June Taylor there is no reason for name calling this is a discussion. You bring up all valid points and alot of those points fall under the Fire Department. Inspections of buildings, if not inspections then walk-thrus of the buildings in your area so you can familiarize yourself with the hazards, out dated procedures, training Such as the venting issue. Now I did not call for his firing I called for him to be held accountable. He is in charge of the Fire Department he is in charge of over seeing training and written policies he is responsible for the conduct of his officers and his Firefighters. What happens in these situations is someone dies then everybody becomes concerned and “make changes” and they forget about all the warnings given to them by the rank and file and the Unions.  You would have to think that if 9 men didn’t sacrifice their lives would there be any changes from the Chief? Now you corrected me stating his comment was made within ‘48’ hours. To me that makes his comment all the worse because he had time to actually think about it

If the store owner had received a permit to build the loading dock, do you really think that would have changed the outcome of this fire?  Get real!

Thank you LadderCO!  I agree with you 100%!!  About the uninformed idiot, Chip Nanko, you need to get your facts straight.  Chief Thomas may have made the comment about how things are done in the Charleston Fire Department, but if you’ll recall it was said within 48 hours after the fire.  Chief Thomas is a big enough man to realize that he shouldn’t have said that without looking at the findings from the fire investigations.  People say things in haste, but he is making changes!  MANY changes to improve our fire department. 

Everyone is pointing fingers at Chief Thomas.  What about the Sofa Super Store and their mistakes?  What about the store’s illegally constructed loading dock that allowed the fire to travel as though it was in a wind tunnel to the front of the store?  What about the hodge-podge layout of the furniture in the store which made escape impossible?  What about St. Andrews Firefighters busting out the store’s front windows which fed oxygen to the fire?  What about the CPW’s water pressure issues?

There is plenty of blame to go around.  It’s human nature to jump on the bandwagon to find a fall guy.  Nine have already fallen.  Isn’t that enough?  If Chief Rusty looses his job will it bring the nine firefighters back? Unequivocally and unfortunately, no.  So give the Chief a chance to do the job that’s in front of him.  The job he’s doing for the nine men he lost, and the 241 that are still here.

Good job two-to-five!  Thank you for saying that in such a wonderful way.  If you did sound like it hippie it makes me like it even more.

No matter how you look at it the responsibility falls on the Chief of the Department. And after a tragedy of mistakes his position should be we will investigate and make any changes that are necessary. If it is better training THEN SEE TO IT. If it is to remove booster lines then SEE TO IT. If its teaching not to vent behind FFs Then see to it. But dont insult everyone and say everything stays the same. Then you are responsible for those deaths and any in the future because you were given a chance to make changes and refused. Remember this isn’t just one incident this is years in the making. This time men died.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!  Finally someone that makes some sense.  It seems that many of the postings are nothing more than personal vendettas from some scorned former, or never hired employees.  Mistakes were clearly made but did they really contribute to the deaths of those nine men?  We take calculated risks in this profession and occasionaly things go terribly wrong. 

Two firefighters died in Boston last month and I don’t see people looking to hang that Chief.

Did any of you read your newspaper today?  I wouldn’t want to be trapped in a burning building in that city if some of those people get their way.  You better have your affairs in order because some of these people want firefighters to simply save the foundation. 

I am not saying that things were handled perfectly on June 18th, but please, for the sake of your citizens don’t go overboard with policy to the point where you have your firefighters second guessing every dicision that is made.  We took an oath to protect our citizens and their property and we accept the risk that goes along with that.

To those of you who get angry at every post that doesn’t agree with you 100%:  Your passion is appreciated by those of us on the job.  But please be mindful that your placing of the lives of nine men at the feet of another is hateful, and does nothing to further your cause...now I sound like a hippie, but I think get what I am saying.

Politics both internal and external will result in change. It appears that change is needed and change can be forced as is the case here. Stagnation is apparent. It had deadly results. This has been a problem here and that is the lack of ICS NIMS training, tatics, pre fire planning, building construction, fire behavoir. This was already in the flash phase and that was obvious to any PROFESSIONAL fire officer. This chief has failed his men and his community and the public is suffering by the attitude of the personnel. Where is the professionalism?

I have a question. Where does the buck stop? With
Chief Thomas? With the Mayor and /or city counsel?
Who at the time on the scene had the authority to pull the firefighters out of the building before it became KILLER. Who was overseeing the Management of the fire dept?  I am not saying who if anyone should lose their job; but it looks like there is lots of room for hindsite. MY PERSONAL THOUGHTS ARE THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN PULLED EARLIER.

Any Chief that, on the Day that he lost 9 men, comes out and says ‘he would do nothing different in the firefighting techniques of his department’ has just proven his arrogance. We all learn from Fire Fighter tragedies which is why we investigate them so no one else makes the same mistakes.  Chiefs and administrators such as these are the reasons Unions exist. As a Union VP I spend more time on safety issues and grievences then anything else. Unions should not have to negotiate safety equipment they should not be grieving OSHA PESH and NFPA violations. The administrators should be holding everyone accountable to these laws not the other way around. I work for a Chief that thinks “airpacks are for P#$%^@!s” and “when it it’s your time to go it’s your time”,and “FF’s never saved anyone”. He is also right now denying FF applications for 911 benifits when they went down to ground zero while on duty. This is a Chief that administrators ,outside the board room, for years have said needs to go yet they do not hold him acountable for anything. So does this happen around the country?  Yes and until the culture changes and the administrators demand that their Chiefs be held accountable more Firefighters will die due to arrogance. Which we all know is a preventable death.

Back to the original question in this post.

The implemtation of the recommendations will only work if the chief and the mayor are willing to honestly abide by them. No one needs more lip service.

It sounds to me that there is a blatant disregard for fire fighter safety in that city, and unti there is a more progressive chief in there, nothing will change. Chief Thomas is like a babies diaper, and needs to be changed for the same reasons.

Regarding the friction between the union and administration. There is always friction between the two parties, however when the union has told the chief and mayor for years that their command system and fire fighting philosophy is out dated and dangerous, and they don’t care, I would say that is the cause some friction. The Chiefs system and inadequate command directly led to the deaths of 9 good men. The blame falls squarely with him, and the mayor, for supporting him. i think until the safety issues are addressed, don’t expect the friction to get any better. There are national standards that purposefully weren’t followed. No excuse

I completely agree with you Mr. Gardner!  It’s nice to finally hear from someone with some common sense.  Things happen for a reason, and sometimes only God knows those reasons.  You can’t point fingers and expect the citizens… who decide to think for themselves instead of listening to senseless bashing… to accept it or even agree with it. Most of the problem now is the unions running thier mouths because of personal reasons totally unrelated to the fire. Makes you realize the union doesn’t belong to CFD members, or the opinions for that matter, it and the opinions belong to the union president.  Ask the members how many of them voted on the union presidents “comments”.

My question to all the naysayers is, Were you there in command?  If not, all your second guessing and Monday morning quaterbacking will not change a thing.  There are still nine men that lost their lives doing what they were paid to do - fight fires. 

From the sounds of the majority of the naysayers, they wouldn’t have tried to save any lives or put the wet stuff on the red stuff.  They would have just did the surround and drown, and hope all the people got out of the building on their own.

I have seen the video,the still photographs and talked to CFD brothers and St. Andrews brothers who were at the Sofa Super Store fire and as a thinking person (and a former CFD fireman in the 70’s and 80s) I have concluded that these men need not have died and I lay the responsibility for their deaths at Chief Rusty Thomas’ feet.This tragedy occured on his watch and under his leadershiip and under a command system of his making. Mayor Joe Riley bears a full share of the responsibility too. He continues to back Chief Thomas. This tragedy will not go away until things change in the CFD for the benefit of the current CFD brothers and the citizens of Charleston . Riley can spin it any way he pleases-his legacy is tainted !

Its against the law for “Public Employee Unions” to collective bargain with State, County or Municipalities government. So Fire Fighters, EMS, Teachers, Public Employees can be members, but cannot actively ingage in bringing issues to Government agency’s because it is considered “collectively bargaining”. Exception to the rule is the Faternal Order of Police, (FOP)one of the largest unions in the nation that collectively bargains for Police Officer Benefits and safety issues. The State allowes this because the State Lodges have a clause added that states they understand that SC is a right to work state and they cannot collective bargain. The State lodges do support, currently, 5 lobbist that do this for there cause of providing these issues to the House and Senate. Because of this delimna, Fire Fighter Unions have no real ability to have issues hear, they can only request. Some Departments listens, others ignore.

Past President, Fire Officers of North Charleston, Local 4158

State OSHA report states Chief Thomas willfully violated the law. He developed and enforced his policies with concious disregard for safety. His policies & procedures could cause death and serious harm to his men and should have known his operating procedures and command system didn’t provide for the safety of CFD fire fighters.
State OSHA says proper gear, training & protocols weren’t provide to fire fighter. Chief Thomas had not even required his men to wear breathing appartus or wear body protection.
OSHA also stated the city must rebuild CFD,s command system,communication and systems implementation. Essentially rebuild the entire department because it is unsafe and deficient.
Charleston FireFighters Local 61 president Roger Yow said simply put Chief Thomas has done things his way, hasn’t listened to others who said he needed to change and now, finally someone has called him on it. The real shame is that 9 good men are dead for anyone to listen to how poor Chief Thomas’s stewardship has been.

The SSS fire is not the first fire of it’s kind there have been dozens of fires like this, all you would have to do is seek some kind of training and you would know this. There was a fire in a family doller store in memphis Tenn. a few years earlier just as garvin opened that rear door so too did the memphis FF. the force was so that 4 FF ,with all their strength, could not shut that door. If garvin had had any training he would have known what was happening and got my brothers out.

What I have noticed from talking to the firemen within the county is that the main problem between county/city is a territory thing.  They had might as well go around peeing on bushes to mark their manly territory.  The main problem between union/administration is money...imagine that.  When you combine those two problems what you end up having are ignorant comments and misguided blame that do not have anything to do with the problem at hand.  In fast paced situations like with the SSS, mistakes can happen, no matter who the leader is.  It is dangerous work these guys are in.  Every time they go into a building it is not a sure thing they will get out. I think that people should look at the evidence, and require that the public should be able to know the evidence, and then make a judgment based on that, not on your personal feelings (or the feelings of the union) of Rusty.

“two-to-five-watch”, I agree completely.  How can we blame someone or any cause in particular before the end of all 5 investigations?  As I said in another posting, while I am sure that there has been another mayor and another chief, I don’t remember any others.  They didn’t just decide on that fateful June night that they were just going to screw things up. They did things the way they have always done and since we haven’t had tragedy before then, there was no PUBLICLY known reason not to do what they had always done.  I think there are many causes of this tragedy, beginning with - What started the fire in the first place?

2 to 5,
Evidence? People all over the nation are looking at a video with chief officers running around a fire scene, making obvious mistakes, and finally seeing 9 men die.
Why don’t you take up Rusty’s battle cry, “Nothings changed”.